Killers of the Flower Moon Episode

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Are you looking for more books to read? We've got you covered. Book interrupted is now doing mini episodes called author Spotlight, where we showcase authors. [00:00:10] Speaker B: And let them tell us about their. [00:00:12] Speaker C: Books and why we should read them. [00:00:14] Speaker A: You can find them on our book interrupted channel. [00:00:16] Speaker B: Wherever you get your podcasts, parental guidance is recommended because this episode has mature topics and strong language. Here are some moments you can look forward to during this episode of book interrupted. Now that you're mentioning it, I did check how long I've been watching it to be like, why has Tom White shown up yet? [00:00:35] Speaker D: It kind of seemed like it was a mystery to Molly for a while. Like, she. And maybe partially because she was being. [00:00:40] Speaker E: Poisoned, I'm gonna take it and do it for them. What I think is best. It's like, how would your white ass know? Yeah. What's best for someone who's not white? [00:00:49] Speaker F: Cause Molly's like the stoic Indian, and then Henry Rowan is the drunken Indian. These are the stereotypes that are are always shown on film. [00:00:58] Speaker A: I had a nap while watching the movie. No, we had to stop the movie. I was like, I'm falling asleep. I was like, I need a ten minute nap. So we turned off the movie. I had a ten minute nap, and then we continued to watch the movie. [00:01:10] Speaker F: My body has sore. The inflammation is the goal. Trying to learn something new. My body is hungry. [00:01:30] Speaker G: Without being disrupted. [00:01:33] Speaker F: Mind, body, and soul inspiration is with. [00:01:37] Speaker B: Us, and we're gonna talk it out on book interrupted. Welcome to book interrupted, a book club for busy people to connect, and one that celebrates life's interruptions. During this book cycle were reading Kim's book, Killers of the Flower Moon, the Osage Murders, and the Birth of the FBI by David Grant. This book was made into a movie in 2023 and stars Leonardo DiCaprio, Robert De Niro, and Lily Gladstone. In the 1920s, the richest people per capita in the world were the members of the Osage Nation in Oklahoma, after oil was discovered beneath their land. Then, one by one, the Osage began to be killed off. As the death toll rose, the newly created FBI took up the case, and the young director, J. Edgar Hoover, turned to Tom White to try to unravel the mystery. White put together an undercover team and together with the osage, began to expose one of the most chilling conspiracies in american history. Let's listen in to this episode's group discussion. [00:02:44] Speaker E: I love it. [00:02:44] Speaker D: Look, I'm wearing a cowboy shirt. I was like, well, this makes me look like the bad guy, but, oh. [00:02:48] Speaker F: Well, there you go. [00:02:49] Speaker E: Hell yeah. Oh, you have an actual copy? Love it. [00:02:52] Speaker D: Okay. It's from the library. The thing with reading books that have been made into movies recently is all their copies were on hold. You know, there's a long hold line. [00:03:01] Speaker B: But the large print version only had. [00:03:03] Speaker D: A really short hold line. So I managed to get it and read it before. [00:03:06] Speaker A: Well, we're at that age. [00:03:09] Speaker D: It's nice. [00:03:10] Speaker F: Did you say it has large print? [00:03:11] Speaker D: Yeah. They always have, like, one large print of the new books. People, when they put them on hold, they don't look at the large print ones. Maybe they're leaving it for other people that need it. But it is nice reading a book of large pranks. Like, sometimes at the end of the day, I don't want to wear my glasses, right? I just want to, like, relax. Or if I'm reading in bed, I don't want to wear my glasses. So the large print turns out actually very nice. And then also I get through it faster. So I feel more accomplished. Because it's like, look at the. Look how big the print is. [00:03:35] Speaker E: It's nice. How did everyone else read? [00:03:37] Speaker B: Kim should introduce it first. [00:03:38] Speaker E: Introduce. And then I'll ask. [00:03:40] Speaker F: Okay. Welcome to our episode about killers of the flower moon, the osage murders and birth of the FBI by David Grant. Are they the osage? I called them osage the whole time I read it. And then I watched the movie last night. And I'm pretty sure it's Osage. [00:03:58] Speaker D: In the movie, they said osage into my head when I read the book, I said osage. But I'm thinking it's probably osage because movie and say it wrong. I hope not. [00:04:06] Speaker F: Yeah, I hope not too. So apologies for my original pronunciation. It wasn't correct. So we got to sat on the. I'll think about being an american osage. Right? Like that makes me think I'm american. So what'd you guys think? What a book. [00:04:23] Speaker G: What a movie. What a friggin story. [00:04:25] Speaker E: Who read the actual book and who read audiobook? [00:04:28] Speaker F: I was actual. [00:04:29] Speaker D: I started with a digital, and then I ended up with the actual. And I was looking for it in like, a used bookstore. And I went to this used bookstore when I. I was visiting Ontario. And the guy's like, oh, we just sold a copy. He's like, but it wasn't very good. And then. So then I had this idea in my head, I'm like, well, the owner of the bookstore must know if it's a poorly written book. And then I had it in my head that I didn't want to read the book. All of a sudden, Dan's like, you don't even know. You're just trusting this guy. You don't even know just because he owns a bookstore. I'm like, he's around books a lot anyway. But, you know, what one person considers good is different than another person anyway. So even if you're friends, your friends might think something's awesome. And you're like, that was terrible. Or vice versa. Usually the vice versa for me, like, people that always like the books, I. [00:05:08] Speaker B: Like women who run with the wolves. Me and Kara are, like, amazing. And you guys are like, not a lot. [00:05:14] Speaker D: I went in with a bit of a bias. This was written poorly, but then I got it. So I had very low expectations going in, but I thought it was fine. [00:05:21] Speaker F: Well, on that note, how did you like the way it was written? Because I found the way that it was written for me. I didn't have a problem with it, but it was very factual. Like, it was like a report, rather. [00:05:31] Speaker E: It was like a report. [00:05:32] Speaker F: A story. Yeah. [00:05:33] Speaker D: It felt like it was a reporter telling a story. [00:05:36] Speaker F: Yeah. [00:05:37] Speaker D: Which I liked because I think that's what it is. Right. Like, I didn't know what it was going to be, but it gave a reporter vibe to it, for sure. [00:05:46] Speaker B: I don't read true crime ever. Like, never. It's not a genre I ever read because I don't. I feel like it's so horrible. I don't want to read something that really happened. So I don't know how normal true. [00:05:57] Speaker D: Crime books are written. [00:05:58] Speaker B: I have no idea. But I liked how it was written. Kind of just reporting and the way he wrote it, like, reporting. Because I would have been lost in all the details if he hadn't written it the way he wrote it. Because I would have been like, who's that guy again? Because there's so many people in the book that he pieced together. But the way he did it, because it was very reporting, each section. I didn't feel lost by the end when he was talking about different. I don't want to say characters, different, actual people. Because the way he set up the book was very factual, and I don't know how to categorize each chapter. Yeah. He. [00:06:37] Speaker D: Carpenter. [00:06:38] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I didn't feel lost. If I stopped reading the book and went back to it, it was way easier for me to. I just assumed all true crime is written in that way, but I guess not. I thought it was easy for me to follow because of the way he wrote that. [00:06:52] Speaker E: I agree. [00:06:52] Speaker B: I and I read the actual book. [00:06:54] Speaker E: Yeah. So I read the audiobook and I listened to a lot of true crime. And I felt like the way that the audiobook was made it easy to follow along. Especially, like, I can get so lost listening to an audiobook with, like, names, dates, not like just so much information in one time. But no, this one, I felt like was easy for me to follow along with. And I didn't hate the audiobook. And I feel like I'm an audiobook hater just of the voices, even though that's like almost how I solely read. So just with that, the audiobook for me was easy to follow along. So I imagine reading the actual book would be just like that, if not easier. [00:07:36] Speaker A: So, yeah, I read the book. Well, I didn't finish the book. Sorry, guys, I didn't. I read a lot of investigative journalism books and I didn't like this one at all. The story itself is important, but I didn't like the factual way. Like, I think investigative journalism needs some kind of storytelling with it. And I found it was just like fact after fact after person, where it's like the distinction description of things that were not needed. The way that a guy who's doing the auction was dressed and there's like a whole page of exactly what he's wearing. [00:08:08] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. [00:08:09] Speaker A: I was like, I don't care. [00:08:11] Speaker D: Who cares? [00:08:11] Speaker A: What does it matter what this guy, who you're never going to hear about again. And like, he keeps adding all these real life people. Whereas I felt it could have been a more streamlined story. So I got about maybe halfway through, and then I skimmed the rest and kind of saw. There's three different parts, I think. And then the second part is him doing the investigative journalism. And the last parts, real stories of the people, I think, from before. [00:08:35] Speaker D: The last part is about other things that didn't get covered. It's about other murders, too, because they're like, oh, the reign of terror kind of got blamed on this hail in earnest, but they weren't the only people killing people out there. And so that was just one piece. But the rest of it wasn't pursued by the government to put charges against other people, even if there was proof. That's kind of one of the other things about this book is that it's showing J. Edgar Hoover was kind of using it to further his vision of the FBI being put together and being created and what he wanted and using it for his own political needs. But they knew that there was other murders that could have been prosecuted and could have been investigated, and they didn't do that because he was also using the osage for his own needs in a different way. And so they weren't the only people killing people for their money out there. You know, there's a lot of other people dying. And so that the last part is he's talking to relatives of other family members that had been murdered or disappeared or whatever. And what those families had tried to find out. Cause some of them had done their own investigations and had proof or evidence anyway of what happened, but no justice for them. So that's what the last part was. [00:09:45] Speaker E: Anyway. [00:09:46] Speaker D: Sorry I went off, but. [00:09:47] Speaker A: No, no, thank you. Yeah, I think I should just reread that part because it's the beginning. Just lost me with far too much detail and not enough story of what. What these people really went through. [00:09:58] Speaker E: I don't know. [00:09:59] Speaker D: It was obvious from the outset, kind of who the bad guys were. I kind of wish it was more unraveled a little bit, too. Right. But, I mean, there's a certain amount, if you write a book to bring a story to light, if it's also an enjoyable book that you're more emotionally invested in, it's going to maybe sell more copies, which is one of the reasons it's good that they made a movie out of it, because then that story gets out there to more people. So that's nice. Or at least people know that it's a thing, or it did seem kind of, like, obvious where everything was going. I kind of. I wish that it unraveled more. I was also investigating it, too, you know, like, I tried to piece it together. [00:10:34] Speaker E: Do you feel like you wish it was more of a mystery? Yeah, a little bit like, yeah, it. [00:10:39] Speaker D: Kind of seemed like it was a mystery to Molly for a while. Like, she. And maybe partially because she was being poisoned. You know, it's hard to piece things together if you're being poisoned and stuff. [00:10:49] Speaker E: It's also hard to just believe that, or believe that somebody could believe that that's your reality. [00:10:55] Speaker D: Yeah. Treat you one way, but also then to see that they look at you as money rather than person that has feelings, too. I digress. [00:11:03] Speaker B: Also, it's hard because you get a sense that Ernest loved her. So when he's home with his family, he's just home with his family, and then he just. It's like he cut that off to be this horrible person with his uncle. I felt so sad for her at the end when she just wouldn't believe that Ernest was involved. She's like, no, not him? [00:11:22] Speaker D: Nope, I don't believe that until she did. [00:11:24] Speaker B: That's my lovely husband. [00:11:26] Speaker F: Yeah. [00:11:26] Speaker B: And then it was, it was like. [00:11:28] Speaker F: Ah, it was so awful. [00:11:30] Speaker B: At least he testified. I felt like it gave him a little bit of a. Maybe he did love her and he did. [00:11:36] Speaker D: I mean, that's what we want to believe. [00:11:39] Speaker B: I just hope that there. Yeah. Was something for her. [00:11:41] Speaker D: Well, you know what I mean, like. [00:11:43] Speaker B: That it was redeemable in some way. [00:11:45] Speaker D: The other thing is, the last section, one of the things that Molly's granddaughter reveals is that her dad, cowboy, told her that the night that the Smith house got blown up, Molly and the two children were supposed to be staying there that night. And the only reason they weren't in the house too, is because Cowboy had an earache and she kept the kids home. Her and the children were also supposed to be murdered that same night in the explosion. [00:12:10] Speaker F: I thought that they also said that Ernest too, that what's his name, Hale wanted earnest to be there as well. [00:12:17] Speaker D: Oh, I didn't think it said that. I could try to look it up. [00:12:20] Speaker G: Yeah, cuz I thought that then the comment afterwards was like Ernest realized his uncle was trying to knock him off too. [00:12:28] Speaker D: No, I think what she says was that so her dad had to live with the knowledge that his father had tried to kill him. [00:12:35] Speaker B: Kill him too. [00:12:35] Speaker D: Yes, that wanted him dead. I don't think Ernest was supposed to be there. [00:12:38] Speaker F: So that's cowboy. I may misunderstood it, thinking, yeah, cowboys, the sun. [00:12:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:42] Speaker D: No, is Ernest and Molly's son. [00:12:46] Speaker B: And I feel like they changed that in the film where he was concerned. Like, where were you? And she's like, we were at Rita and Bill's house and he's like, you have to stay home. [00:12:54] Speaker D: I don't like that they changed that. I don't either. [00:12:58] Speaker B: But you know what I read too, talking about the. You wish it was more of a mystery to solve or something. [00:13:02] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:13:03] Speaker B: Apparently Lino DiCaprio was being interviewed in Martin Scorchesi. And I'm not sure who told this, but originally the screenplay they were writing was just the screenplay of the book. They scrapped that screenplay and started again and realized the story was Ernest. Molly make that the focal point rather than all of the different pieces that were in that book. So maybe that's why they're trying to make it more like what you're saying that you wanted. [00:13:27] Speaker D: It didn't seem like Molly was the focal point in the movie. [00:13:31] Speaker F: I don't think that they really got there. [00:13:32] Speaker D: I felt like it was a movie about earnest the whole thing. [00:13:35] Speaker F: If we're talking about Hollywood and what Sarah's saying, like, the movie is watching Earnest betray Molly in real time, that's where the hook is to, you know what I mean? For, like, the story of what you want to watch. I don't think that. I mean, they should have probably reworked the screenplay still, because I feel like they really sold the Tom white figuring it all out stuff. All of the implants. Like, they barely, this is similar to, like, the Hunger Games. You don't even know. When they introduce Ren, all of a sudden there's a new character. They're like, hey, this guy, his name's Ren. He's like, well, yeah, I might have some family here or whatever, but, you know, if you read the book, oh, he's an implant. Like, they implanted him. Insurance guy's like, oh, I just sold him or whatever. And he's like, oh, I guess you have work tomorrow, right? It's like Josh didn't know because I, like, we were watching it together. You know who those guys are? And he's like, no, not really. And I'm like, those are all undercover FBI agents. [00:14:28] Speaker D: Do they have a scene where he's hiring these people or he's sending a letter? [00:14:32] Speaker E: Yes. [00:14:32] Speaker F: Yeah, but that's what I mean. Like, they spent 3 hours on Ernest and Molly and, like, fucking hail, like, slow talking to, so it was way too long and slow to do the story, and then to wrap it all up, they had to cram it all in. And I just think that it wasn't really ready. [00:14:51] Speaker D: It wasn't well, and, like, who wants to watch a movie all about just bad guys? [00:14:56] Speaker F: Yeah, right. [00:14:57] Speaker D: Like, I'm not rooting for the bad guys. It's like you didn't feel like you cared about those guys at all, which made it hard. I needed something to care about in. [00:15:04] Speaker E: The movies for such a long movie, too, to hold your attention. I think it's really, it felt like it just dragged on. [00:15:12] Speaker F: Yeah. [00:15:12] Speaker E: For me, I think if I didn't read the book, I don't think I would have known what was going on the movie, because I was just so, like, occupied with other things. I just, it just didn't hold my attention. So I'm kind of glad some of you guys are saying the same, because I was like, oh, I don't know if this is supposed to be, it. [00:15:28] Speaker F: Was just so long and slow. Like, I would have preferred if they made a movie from, like, almost Molly's point of view, where she's falling in love with this husband. And maybe every once in a while, there's something weird that kind of tortured her, but, like, otherwise, she's happy and has a husband if it's going to be 3 hours long. So hour long, they fall in love, and Molly thinks it's for real and legit. Hour two, we see the exact same movie again, but from Ernest's perspective. And it includes all of the underhanded bullshit he's doing with his uncle. [00:15:58] Speaker E: Yeah. [00:15:59] Speaker F: And then our three can be Tom white figuring it out or whatever, uncovering it somehow. We have to have a three and a half hour movie that makes. Because then it would be like a mystery. Then it would have that gone girl effect, you know what I mean? Where you're, like, you would be able to feel what Molly probably felt, because you would start as Molly, thinking you're just having a husband and being like, well, maybe he wants me for my money. This shit's going on here. Like, and then really having it, like, revealed to the viewer anyway how bad and how underhanded he was. He also wasn't, I don't think, giving her the shots of poison insulin. [00:16:35] Speaker B: That was his movie. [00:16:36] Speaker F: Exactly. Because in the book, it was like, once she stopped having that from those doctors, then she started to get better. [00:16:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:43] Speaker F: You know what I mean? So, like, she got better. [00:16:45] Speaker D: When Tom White sent her to a hospital, she started getting better. [00:16:48] Speaker B: Yes. [00:16:49] Speaker D: When she. [00:16:49] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:16:49] Speaker F: When she stopped receiving her insulin from those doctors, the part where, like, the husband's giving her the meds. Like, that didn't really happen. I don't think. I think they just added it in to add how bad he was just to seal the deal in case there was anyone was left wondering if they could stay together or something. [00:17:08] Speaker D: Why doesn't she just forgive him for killing her entire family? [00:17:10] Speaker B: No. Yeah, that wasn't in it. [00:17:13] Speaker A: Does the movie really need to be three and a half hours long? [00:17:16] Speaker E: I guess it was slow. Yes, too slow. It was just boring in too many parts. [00:17:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:23] Speaker B: I think they also should have introduced Tom White earlier. [00:17:27] Speaker F: He should have been like, an, knowing. [00:17:28] Speaker B: Him, doing the investigation. They shouldn't have started with, I think, Ernest arriving. I should have. They should have started with Tom White being told he needs to do this investigation. A little bit about why he was chosen and something like that. I don't know. Yeah. 3 hours. I liked the movie. Now that you're mentioning it, I did check how long I've been watching it to be like, why has Tom white shown up yet? [00:17:51] Speaker F: Like, how do we pause it? [00:17:53] Speaker D: At one point, we were like, there's. [00:17:54] Speaker F: Still an hour and a half left. [00:17:55] Speaker D: What? [00:17:56] Speaker B: I checked twice. I was like, first it was like an hour. And I was like, when's white going to get there? When are they going to even start investigating? What the hell? [00:18:04] Speaker D: And then I checked again when there was, like, an. [00:18:06] Speaker B: And he still didn't show up. But he showed up soon after. But I think it was 2 hours in, and he wasn't even in the film. I was like, what the hell is happening? [00:18:15] Speaker F: And it's kind of weird because the book is, like, all Tom white kind of revealing how he understood it or uncovered it. So then for him not to show up till the very end with that stuff was weird. [00:18:26] Speaker D: They changed things to make them a little bit more dramatic. I could have got this wrong. Maybe I'm remembering the book differently. Was her name Anna? The sister? Like a murder? Was it Anna or Anna. [00:18:36] Speaker F: Anna Brown. [00:18:37] Speaker B: Anna Brown. [00:18:38] Speaker D: In the movie, she tries to shoot somebody with a gun, and then she gets murdered. And it's like, I don't think that happened. It kind of made her look like she wasn't good. It kind of demonized her a little bit as this person who was. I think she did show up at the party and she was drunk. In the book, she made a scene. [00:18:54] Speaker B: She was a flapper. Yeah, yeah, as a flapper. [00:18:57] Speaker D: Like, she'd been party like, gone to. [00:18:59] Speaker F: The scene was her drunkenness is what. [00:19:01] Speaker D: Yeah, you're led to believe in the movie, she's like, really making a bigger scene. Tries to pull out her gun and stuff. And so I feel like parts of the movie tried to demonize a little. [00:19:10] Speaker F: Bit, the victims, make them more interesting. [00:19:13] Speaker D: Make it look like, well, maybe they got killed by accident, maybe to make it more believable. But it's like, the story is innocent people are being murdered. Not that somebody got, you know, killed. [00:19:25] Speaker G: And kind of deserved it. [00:19:27] Speaker D: I think the idea is that, like, well, then maybe people weren't being suspicious because, oh, Anna was bad news anyway. Or people aren't suspicious because this guy has melancholy. Anyway, that was not the story. People weren't suspicious because of racism. [00:19:42] Speaker F: People were suspicious, but people were suspicious and they didn't. [00:19:45] Speaker D: They're like, yeah, that's suspicious, but who cares? As the story, right. Was that this whole group of people were being used because they had oil. [00:19:56] Speaker E: Right. [00:19:56] Speaker D: I didn't like that the movie tried to make it like, you know, maybe it wasn't as suspicious as it seems, but it's like, no, the story is. It was all very suspicious. [00:20:03] Speaker B: Yeah. Right off the bat, they were suspicious. [00:20:05] Speaker D: Everybody was like, pretty. It was just like people were. Just seemed to be fine with it. Not everybody, obviously, but some people were just fine with it. The people who were supposed to be enforcing the law. Let's say we're okay with just turning the other way. [00:20:16] Speaker G: It seems like a really concentrated example of the history of colonialism. [00:20:23] Speaker F: You know what I mean? [00:20:24] Speaker G: Like, it's a very specific example of how this plays out. [00:20:28] Speaker F: You know? [00:20:29] Speaker E: I'm also interested to know if, one, the author was involved in the adaptation, and two, if it was a male who wrote the adaptation. [00:20:42] Speaker A: It is white male diCaprio. [00:20:44] Speaker D: Okay. Because I was, and other people, so. [00:20:47] Speaker E: I was going to say maybe they're not even intentionally, or maybe they are intentionally making the victim seem a little more deserving. Because I think just from my personal experience, so many men, they don't take the accountability or the blame. And there's so much justification. So I'm almost wondering if that was like on purpose or maybe even by accident or something. [00:21:11] Speaker D: An unconscious bias kind of thing. [00:21:12] Speaker E: Yeah, yeah. That could be why a lot of our opinions are kind of, they're bad people. We're not rooting for them, but, oh. [00:21:20] Speaker D: They were gonna die anyway. [00:21:21] Speaker E: But to guys, they're like, well, that's, that's who we are. What are you talking about? Or something? [00:21:26] Speaker D: You know? [00:21:27] Speaker E: I don't know if that makes any sense or if I'm just talking shit. [00:21:29] Speaker G: But no, it makes sense. [00:21:31] Speaker D: Yeah, right. You're wondering, was it intentional or unintentional? [00:21:34] Speaker E: Yeah, yeah. Like what it came off as was. [00:21:36] Speaker D: Like, uh, you're kind of making it look like this person was going to die anyway, so. [00:21:40] Speaker E: Oh, well, right. [00:21:41] Speaker F: Is it whitewashing? [00:21:43] Speaker E: Yeah, a little bit. [00:21:44] Speaker F: Hale said that in the movie, even though it was almost like it was a plot piece to be like, well, Anna's always been, she's got a mouth on her. That's why, like, the very thing that you're not liking Mar was what he was kind of saying in the movie. [00:21:56] Speaker D: Too, but in real life, he wasn't killing her because like, oh, she was going to meet her end anyway. That's what he wanted other people to believe. He was just like, this is business. [00:22:05] Speaker B: Killing her for money. [00:22:06] Speaker D: He wanted other people to believe that, though. [00:22:09] Speaker A: Yeah, there was, at the end of the movie, there's like the credits are all the, like, people that were involved with their pictures. [00:22:16] Speaker E: I don't know. [00:22:16] Speaker A: In the one I was watching and it was director white man, producer, older white man. They all looked almost identical. Producer white man producer, white man writer, white man. And then the writer of the book, white man. I was like, it seems like a bias or a skewed. And I also think there's this whole thing in Hollywood of, oh, wow. The indigenous characters are being played by real indigenous people. And it's like, if this is the bar that we are setting, this is a real low bar that. Whoa, it's so good. Shouldn't it be obvious that that should happen? [00:22:50] Speaker D: Yeah, totally. Pretty, like, minimal. You want to pat on the back? Congratulations. Right? [00:22:56] Speaker F: But there's that. There's another thing that goes to the other extreme. There was, like, an uproar that someone I can't remember was playing someone who had cerebral palsy. Or maybe it's. Can't remember the actor's name, but he played Stephen Hawking, and so he plays Stephen Hawking before he's incapacitated, and then he plays him after, and they're all like, you should have got a real guy with cerebral palsy to play that role. Like, we're like, oh, yeah. Obviously, sometimes it's. You know what I mean? [00:23:24] Speaker E: I don't know how to sell it, Hollywood. Right. Unless it's sexy whiteness, it doesn't sell. [00:23:30] Speaker F: Yeah. [00:23:30] Speaker E: So for us, it's so. Oh, that's so obvious to do that, because, like, duh, you want to see representation. You want an actual account, actual struggles. But I feel like in Hollywood, it doesn't matter. If hiring a white person is going to bring you in an extra five mil, then do it well. [00:23:46] Speaker F: Also, too, though, like, representation. If all of the white people are in charge of all of the things that we do, then they would hire all of the white people because that's what represents them. [00:23:54] Speaker E: Them. [00:23:54] Speaker F: Like, again, it would be, like, potentially the blind spot of, like, oh, yeah, obviously this actor can play that role. We'll just darken his skin or whatever. [00:24:01] Speaker D: Like, a little ironic, though, for the story they're telling, right? [00:24:05] Speaker F: Totally. Totally. But I do think it's good that. [00:24:08] Speaker G: This story is being told, too, because I didn't. This is the first time that I've known about it. [00:24:14] Speaker B: I didn't know it, and I also. [00:24:16] Speaker F: Thought it was interesting. Do you think it's interesting? Because I don't remember them mentioning Tulsa in the book, but they mentioned Tulsa in the movie a couple times, so I don't know if they did that to, like, give it a shout out because it was, like, happening at the same time and they didn't want to discriminate against someone else's major trauma. History. Like I don't know why they did that because I didn't realize too, it. [00:24:38] Speaker D: Wasn'T in the book. [00:24:39] Speaker F: Yeah, right. So then they started talking about Tulsa and this is all Oklahoma if I'm not mistaken. So maybe that's why, like, I don't know, like it was weird to me that Tulsa was already all of a sudden thrown in there. [00:24:50] Speaker A: Maybe it was just showing like race relations in the states at the time. Maybe that are context that are, you know, already strained. [00:24:58] Speaker F: Like this is happening everywhere. [00:24:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:00] Speaker F: And nothing. [00:25:00] Speaker G: Yeah, nothing's being done. [00:25:02] Speaker B: Or maybe in the book. I was very interested that at the time this was all happening. They're only beginning to have structure of police forces and stuff in the US. Before it was like your community just does it. You just get together and think, okay, you do. You investigated the, this one, this time. I felt that was interesting because I think that has relevance, especially for the Tom White character. It was kind of lawless. And then he came in for the government. I work for the government. My job is to make justice. [00:25:33] Speaker A: Right. [00:25:34] Speaker B: There should have been something about that too. Anyway, I liked the movie for the book. I think it did a decent job. Three and a half hours trying to put everything that was in that book. Because it was so much stuff in that book. It was long and dense and small print. I thought I did a good job. But now that you guys are mentioning different things, I was like, oh yeah, I thought that too. And oh yeah, when I was watching the movie, I thought that too. It's just at the time I was like, no, I think they did an okay job. I think it would be a really hard book to make into a movie because of it's. And it was over a span of like ten years or something. Is that right? Ten years? [00:26:06] Speaker F: Maybe even. [00:26:07] Speaker B: Maybe longer. [00:26:08] Speaker F: The bill earlier ones I think spanned that time. But then there was other deaths that they know from before that people got head writes from and after and after. [00:26:20] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:26:21] Speaker A: Do you think the movie is so popular because it's all those famous actors that are in it? And if it wasn't, do you think that the population of the states or I guess world or whatever would pay as much attention to the story? [00:26:34] Speaker D: I think having Martin Scorsese doing it is a big one. He's got some big names. They could have had the big names and it could have been not only about Hale and Ernest. You know, it was just like you're watching this movie with the bad guys and then anybody who's not bad is just kind of like a bit character. [00:26:53] Speaker F: It just felt waiting to be killed off. And like, they're the main characters, really. [00:26:58] Speaker D: Although it is called the killers of the flower moon, the story is about the killers. It's not about everybody else. [00:27:05] Speaker E: Well, that happens so often in. Especially listening to true crime. It's always about the killers. It's never about the victims. The victims get like such a small mention, basically. Right. In that way, I felt like it's very relatable to so much stuff that I digest. And I don't even think we realize that we put so much focus on the killers versus the. On victims. Oh, yeah. This victim was, you know, she was a female, early twenties, blonde hair, green eyes, etcetera. And then it's like. So anyways, back when the killer was born. [00:27:44] Speaker F: Yeah, totally. Let's get back to the killer. [00:27:46] Speaker E: He's so interested, you know, like their whole life. And it's. Yeah, and it's everything that leads up to their life in there. But then when it comes to the victims, it's like, yeah, their birthday is April 25, 1990. Died 20 years later. You know, the detail is so small for the victims versus the killers of our. [00:28:09] Speaker F: That's a total valid point. I feel like it's because of decolonization and reconciliation and everything. The fact that this one is a true crime about the killing of indigenous people, that we were like, oh, you know what I mean? Like, trying to be good. [00:28:25] Speaker E: It's still the white man telling the story. [00:28:28] Speaker F: Yeah, yeah. [00:28:29] Speaker E: You know, like it's. It's the same story with different characters, basically, that we've heard so many times. It's not the indigenous people telling they're being victimized. Right. [00:28:40] Speaker F: Like, you make a really great point. Because it's never the victim telling the story. Right. Like, it never really is. But in this case, we were like, they should be the focus and whatever. Because we've got raised awareness around decolonization or reconciliation. But on a grander scale, that's never the case. Right. [00:28:59] Speaker G: The killers get sensationalized. [00:29:01] Speaker B: I would have liked to see a story that was like a movie more focused on Molly and her sisters, their relationship. Because that's why it was so devastating. Like, her whole family got taken out, all of her sisters. [00:29:13] Speaker F: It's devastating because, like, indiscriminately, any osage that even the fact that half of them were declared incompetent. So white people had to be in charge of their money. And like, there's a whole bunch of stuff in the story that is way more important to be talking about or focusing on. [00:29:32] Speaker E: It's killing the Indians in so many different ways. [00:29:35] Speaker F: Right, exactly. [00:29:36] Speaker E: It's complete control over someone. It's. Slaves were, became legal after, I don't remember when, but people were still enslaved, you know, like, whether or not it was legal or not, there was different ways to make people just get more slave more under. Oh, totally. Right. And it's like, no, no, no. We're doing this for them. They don't know what they're doing. So I'm gonna take it and do it for them. What I think is best. It's like, how would your white ass know. [00:30:04] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:30:05] Speaker E: What's best for someone who's not white? [00:30:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I can't believe that they had. [00:30:10] Speaker D: A. Yeah, the money thing. [00:30:10] Speaker A: Do you know that the actress Lily Gladstone, who played Molly, won a the Golden Globe for best actress? We all know that. That's pretty good. Yeah. Just recently, best actress in a drama motion picture. I just wanted to make sure I knew her name. I was looking it up, but Lily Gladstone. So that's pretty cool. I don't know who she was up against. [00:30:30] Speaker D: I think it was a tough role to play, too, because they addressed this in the movie by saying that, like, don't talk too much because Hale's coaching Ernest being like, you know, if you talk too much, you'll be, I don't know, criticized, but that Molly was this kind of calm person who's, you got that impression in the book and that she might not be saying so much out loud as, you know, Ernest was blabbering on or whatever. And so I think it was maybe a tough role to play where they don't have any inner monologue going on in the movie, and she's supposed to both show this, you know, kind of calm demeanor. She's the one who takes care of the family. Right? Like, she's the one who takes care of the mom. And she's kind of, like, got that role in the family where she's responsible one taking care of everybody, and she's got things together. Right. She's got her shit together. But then you're trying to be like an actress showing that calm demeanor, but also experience all this stuff. It was, that was, I think, a tough role. Look, like you happen together all the time, but also that you're being affected by all the stuff that's going around you. I don't know. Yeah. [00:31:31] Speaker B: All your family's being murdered, your husband's family's racist and horrible, and you are slowly being poisoned, and you're still supposed. [00:31:41] Speaker D: To be like, you have no control over your money. You have to go and ask somebody for money. No control over your money. [00:31:46] Speaker E: Just no control over your life at all. It's, like, scary and devastating. [00:31:52] Speaker F: There's this other author named Thomas King. What did he write? The inconvenient Indian is one of his books. And in that book, he's talking about how, I don't know if it's Hollywood or the white. Like, I don't know how he characterizes whoever it is that is doing this. Right. There's a thing where it's not, I think, appropriate or it's at least one dimensional that he calls out about how stereotypes about indigenous people are reinforced. And I feel like, as we're talking about this, I'm thinking about it, and I'm thinking, like, oh, my gosh. Like, is that what's happening here, too? Because Molly's, like, the stoic Indian and then Henry Rowan is the drunken Indian. These are the stereotypes that are. Are always shown on film, of when you have an indigenous representation on a film, it's the. The characters fall into these categories. Or the warrior Indian, as we discuss, like, oh, a white man produced it, and a white man wrote this book. And then we're just talking about how the people that it's depicting show up in the movie. I'm seeing those things, and I'm like, is that what's happening? Even right here, right now? It's so crazy and, like, oniony layers because you think on the surface, oh, this is, you know, we're finally acknowledging what happened and revealing it. Or even when Tom White went to go and search it out and solve the crimes, it was some version of altruistic, but really it wasn't because Hoover was trying to further his popularity and create a thing and whatever and, like, using it. And even just right now, like, Hollywood's finally acknowledging indigenous people and she won the Golden Globe, and look at how good we're being. But there's still those shades of that stuff that indigenous people are saying, like, this is not okay, or whatever. It's so complicated. Like, it's just so insidious. [00:33:42] Speaker E: And, yeah, people might not even realize that. [00:33:45] Speaker F: How they perpetuate. [00:33:47] Speaker E: Yes. The film producers may have not even realized, or the person writing the author may not have realized. [00:33:53] Speaker F: That's how they're still falling into the categories. [00:33:55] Speaker E: Yes. They're still filling in those stereotypes. And to them, they might be like, oh, look like I'm representing indigenous people and their story. [00:34:03] Speaker F: Yeah. [00:34:04] Speaker E: From a white man perspective. [00:34:06] Speaker F: Yeah. [00:34:07] Speaker E: And, like, you know, just very stereotypical indigenous people. Is that a true retelling or is that a very biased retelling of the story? [00:34:17] Speaker F: Yeah, because. And then you can't really hearken back to the book because the book is just like the facts of the incidences, right? So we don't really know if Molly actually loved to fucking joke and tickle. And we don't. We don't know because he didn't spend time talking about her character or her personality. Right. The sister, too. Like, she's the wild indian, the savage. You know what I mean? Like, even her mother says, like, oh, you're so wild. [00:34:40] Speaker B: So in the movie, right. She does that. [00:34:43] Speaker E: Or just even how a wild indigenous person is called savage, you know, like, it's. That in of itself is so derogatory, right? It's. They could just be living traditionally and that can be considered, like, so savage. Yeah. Yeah. Really good points, Kim. [00:35:00] Speaker G: I guess that's the end. [00:35:03] Speaker E: So fuck the book. [00:35:07] Speaker D: Can we talk about, I don't know, the significance of the blanket? You know, how Molly kind of followed more traditional stuff, whereas her sisters were like. Was more in the flapper and it was. I don't remember but what the other two sisters were into, but, like, into that style. But Molly had her blanket. Like, that's so cool. But I also did not like that they referred to the women as their blanket. It's like, that's just so gross. When I read that, I was like, oh, right. It's just so disrespectful. [00:35:37] Speaker E: Oh, totally. Just even in the sense of being, like, the blanket as, oh, well, she's gonna take care of me, you know, like she's gonna tuck me and she's gonna. I get to rest while I have this blanket over me, basically. Right. And so, of course, the woman's gotta go in, go and do everything right. Yeah, be their blanket. Totally. Yeah. It shows, like, a very. A deep understanding of the culture and the knowledge as well. [00:36:04] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:36:05] Speaker A: I mean, the design in general of the movie was, I think, well done. The costumes and the outfits and the way that the sets were and all that kind of stuff I thought was quite well done. [00:36:14] Speaker E: Yeah. Like, there was definitely some thought put into a lot of the details. So I love that. I love that in books and movies when they take the time to add those details, you know, Easter eggs, I don't even know if that's really an Easter egg. But just kind of that extra thought they could have literally just fucking jeans and a t shirt, you know, like, really, movies could do that if they wanted to, but to put the actual effort in to make it feel like a timepiece and make it feel like it's true to all the characters, I think is nice. [00:36:42] Speaker A: I didn't realize everybody drives their cars on the. What do we normally do? The right hand side is the driver, which I found really interesting because I guess that they would have been imported from England. So when did people start in North America having this, the driver's seat on the left hand side. [00:37:00] Speaker D: I didn't notice that at all. [00:37:02] Speaker A: I don't know. It was like one detail. [00:37:03] Speaker F: I thought I saw Leonardo DiCaprio on the left. Oh, no, he was on the right. [00:37:08] Speaker A: He was on the right because he. [00:37:09] Speaker F: Opened that door full time. Yeah. [00:37:11] Speaker A: So the driver was on the right hand side, which is very british. So was that all cars at that time, or was it? And why did we end up going to the left? Like, where did that happen? Like, was that a rebellion against the british government or just practicality? [00:37:27] Speaker F: And it wasn't until Ford released the Model T in 1908 that operating a vehicle while positioned on the left side began to become common practice. The revolutionary car was one of the first automobiles to have a left side steering wheel. [00:37:42] Speaker E: Aaron. [00:37:42] Speaker D: Oh, this is a picture from the book, but it looks like he's in the middle, so I don't know. We're going to try to find a different one. [00:37:49] Speaker A: Why do we start? [00:37:50] Speaker F: Ontario and the central provinces have always driven on the right side of the road. On the other hand, British Columbia, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and Prince Edward island all changed from left side traffic to right side in the early 1920s. [00:38:02] Speaker A: Wow. [00:38:02] Speaker D: Early 1920s. [00:38:05] Speaker F: It's probably got to do exactly what you're saying. Like, the British came, and so they're like, this is how you do it. And so whatever reason the central people got affected later because they were landlocked, people from other places didn't get there as quickly as they got to the coastal areas and in. So it took longer to probably take effect. [00:38:24] Speaker D: Right. [00:38:25] Speaker F: But by then, the middle people had already been like, we were out on the right or whatever. And then maybe that was one of their statements and independence, when they went, you know, to a country instead of just a commonwealth or whatever. [00:38:36] Speaker A: Totally random. But I just. I noticed that. That was the one thing that I really noticed. [00:38:41] Speaker F: You're so bored. You're like, oh, oh, look, they're on the other side of the road. [00:38:45] Speaker D: What else is going on in here? [00:38:47] Speaker A: I had a nap while watching the movie. No, we had to stop the movie. I was like, I'm falling asleep. I was like, I need a ten minute nap. So we turned off the movie. I had a ten minute nap. And then we continued to watch the movie. Cause I was like, I can't. [00:38:59] Speaker F: I would have been helping. [00:39:01] Speaker A: He was so tired, but it was just so slow. [00:39:05] Speaker D: He didn't watch the last hour. I was like, I'm gonna stay up and do this. I was done. I was like, it's done. [00:39:12] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:39:13] Speaker F: Just what did you think about how the very ending happened with the weird radio show? Like, I know that was actual legit of the book with Jack White. [00:39:21] Speaker B: I was like, is that Jack White? [00:39:23] Speaker D: And it is not right. [00:39:25] Speaker F: What a great cameo. [00:39:26] Speaker D: Yeah. Did he do some of the music for the movie? Because it seemed like I didn't notice, but Dan did. He's like. He's like, oh, yeah, I think he did some of the music because it sounded like him playing in the movie. [00:39:37] Speaker G: Some of the music was pretty cool. [00:39:38] Speaker F: You know what I mean? It wasn't like western. Well, and have you ever heard that album by Jack White called Lazaretto or. [00:39:45] Speaker G: That'S got some western vibes, you know. [00:39:48] Speaker F: Like saloony type stuff? [00:39:50] Speaker D: So the radio show is interesting. It's a weird way to wrap it up, I guess, but throw some stuff in. [00:39:57] Speaker A: I thought it was cool. I like that they. How to see how they made all the sound effects where they were, like, the different things they did. I thought that was really neat. And how are you supposed to do that? [00:40:07] Speaker B: How are you going to rap? [00:40:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:09] Speaker D: Yeah, I did like it. I wasn't expecting it. [00:40:11] Speaker E: Yeah, no, I thought it was a fun way to end, too, especially I watch videos of people, how they make sounds for movies and stuff. So when I was watching that, I was like, no way. That TikTok is in this right now. So, yeah, no, I liked it. I thought it was a fun little because it was just boring. I felt like it was a nice addition. I was like, cool. That was something I enjoyed watching from the movie, you know? [00:40:37] Speaker B: And it was good way to wrap it up, or the movie was gonna go on forever. I was like, are we gonna do a wrap up? What happened now? Like, my God, it was already three and a half hours. Yeah. [00:40:46] Speaker D: Yes. [00:40:47] Speaker G: Well, it was very, like, unique and creative and. [00:40:49] Speaker D: Yeah, totally quirky and whatever. [00:40:51] Speaker B: Good way to wrap it other than just writing it out, you know, sometimes movies just write it out. Like, this is what happened, and you're, like, trying to quickly read what end up happening to the characters. I thought I was better than that. Yeah. [00:41:01] Speaker D: I don't know. If I hadn't read the book first, I don't know if I would have really understood everything that was going on in the movie though. Same. [00:41:09] Speaker E: Yeah, I agree. [00:41:11] Speaker D: I felt more kind of. [00:41:12] Speaker E: I don't know if outraged. [00:41:13] Speaker D: Like maybe more outraged reading the book being like, I can't. [00:41:16] Speaker B: Like, I believe it. [00:41:17] Speaker D: I can believe it. And that's the worst part. That this, all this happened. And it's believable and it's terrible, but still. [00:41:24] Speaker A: Yeah, like at the end. [00:41:25] Speaker F: What are you going to do? [00:41:26] Speaker E: Make it longer. [00:41:27] Speaker F: I dogged a page about the death rates too. And the death toll. Over the 16 year period. From 1907 to 1923, 605 osage died, averaging about 38 per year. An annual death rate of about 19 per thousand. The national death rate now is about 8.5 per thousand. In the 1920s, when counting methods were not so precise and the statistics were segregated into white and black racial categories, it averaged almost twelve per thousand for whites, by all rights, their higher standard of living should have brought the osage a lower death rate than american whites. Yet osage were dying at more than one and a half times the national rate. And those numbers do not include osage, born after 1907. It was just such a huge massacre, genocide, like, I don't know what the right words is, but, like, it was an intentional. And it was just so greedy. Like, I just hate how whatever the reasoning, the entitlement and it's just fucking crazy. [00:42:30] Speaker D: And how people were so angry about. [00:42:31] Speaker E: Them having money and for what, like, at the end of the day, it's for what you're on this life for such a short period of time in the grand scheme of time evolution. And you're gonna use that to like, just be a piece of shit. It's so weird. You just have so much hate, I think so much fear and hate. Like, so that's what it stems from. [00:42:51] Speaker D: And like, ego. [00:42:52] Speaker F: Like, it's like they're blind. [00:42:53] Speaker E: Yes. [00:42:54] Speaker B: And they're already charging them more for everything. You're already just so greedy already. You're already making a so much more money off them, purchasing things from you and using your services. Why do you have to kill them to, like, you have to have, you need more. You need to have everything. Like it's just so greedy and it's sick. [00:43:19] Speaker E: Like it's. To be around someone like that. To be in a. To be in a society like that. Like it really. It's exhausting for everyone involved. Yeah, nothing good comes of it. [00:43:31] Speaker A: Well, you can't think of somebody as an equal or human being if you're going to treat them that way. So they obviously thought of them as lesser than and where race comes in. [00:43:40] Speaker E: Right. Race, sexism, all of it. [00:43:43] Speaker F: So shall we go around with our recommendations or not? Movies or books? [00:43:49] Speaker B: Yes, please. [00:43:50] Speaker F: Both. Neither one. So many combinations of how you could recommend here. [00:43:56] Speaker B: I recommend both. I liked reading the book, watching the movie, but, yeah, the movie was very long. But after reading the book, which was also very long in detail, I kind of like watching the movie afterwards. So I enjoyed it. Just be prepared. You're going to be watching for a long time. [00:44:11] Speaker G: You need an afternoon. [00:44:13] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:44:14] Speaker B: And reading for a long time. Really? It was a long book. [00:44:17] Speaker F: Well, I didn't find the book to be that long. I felt like I read the book fairly quickly. I liked the chapter length. That was something I wanted to say about Hunger games. The chapters were fucking long, too. Like, when is this chapter over? And I have, like, a weird OCD thing where I want to finish reading on a chapter. Like, I don't want to just stop in the middle. And so, having read them in the order that we're reviewing them or whatever, I did this one next. And it was a pleasant relief because I could easily digest a chapter and potentially even two in a setting, instead of fighting and keeping one eye open, just trying to get to the end of the stupid chapter and redone it. [00:44:54] Speaker B: This book also did a really good thing where they did. Even within the chapter, they'd have the little marker mark. [00:45:00] Speaker F: I can let myself stop. [00:45:01] Speaker B: There's been a fact. [00:45:02] Speaker F: Very helpful to me. [00:45:04] Speaker B: Right. Me too. So sometimes I could just pop open the book and read for, like, ten minutes and be like, okay, I can end there and not finish this chapter and that's okay. [00:45:12] Speaker F: Totally. [00:45:13] Speaker B: Yeah. It was really good that way. So I would recommend both. How about you, Mare? [00:45:16] Speaker D: Let's see the book. Like, Kim, it didn't take me that long to read the book, so I didn't find it to be too long. I liked that it had pictures in it. I really like books with pictures, especially if it's a historical book. So I would recommend it. I was thinking it was going to be really poorly written. I think that if I hadn't got that first review, I would have been more critical of this book because I was expecting not very much. I would recommend it just for the interest. It's something that I'd never heard about that had happened. So just from a historical perspective, I think that's interesting. The movie. I did not enjoy the movie. I don't know if I'd recommend the movie because of the amount of time it takes to watch it. And there are certain aspects that I didn't like, like certain portrayals of people who were victims, but they were portrayed in a way that I thought was disrespectful to the people as they were described in the book. So I didn't like that. And it's mostly just a movie about the bad guys. And, um, you know, if I have a certain amount of time to watch a movie, do I want to be watching a movie just about the bad guys? It's kind of a feel bad thing. I know this would be a feel good movie, but maybe I could feel better if it focused more on the other people in the movie, not the people who are going around killing everybody. [00:46:26] Speaker F: Yeah, I think that's a good point, too, though, mayor, because the lack of satisfaction that you get from the whole end of the movie and the experience is a whiff of the lack of satisfaction of all of the families who didn't get any justice or answers or. You know what I mean, too. So I don't know if that's just me making a big stretch or if. [00:46:46] Speaker D: That was intentional, even that was an artistic decision, maybe. [00:46:49] Speaker F: Maybe. [00:46:50] Speaker D: So that you feel. I think it's good that the story is being told. So, you know, either, I don't know if it was a fiction, if I would recommend either, let's say. But since it's true, I would say either watch the movie or read the book. They're both fine. They might take the u the same amount of time. [00:47:08] Speaker F: I'm like that, too. Like, there's some problematic things with the movie and maybe the book, but the story or the knowledge of the. The history, I guess the awareness of that is important. And I guess it matters how the history is shared. So I'm iffy on the movie, like, because if you're just not going to read the book, you're just going to watch the movie. I'm not sure you're going to get, really an understanding of the history that I think is the most important piece of this story. I don't know if this is the book to read to figure out about it either, but I don't know if there is other information out there around here to get more information in a better, accurate way or whatever. Right? So I think it's important to know, to seek knowledge around these things. I don't know if the mediums with which we received this knowledge are the best way to receive it, but I do think it's important to pursue the knowledge nonetheless. So is that a recommendation? Who knows? [00:48:11] Speaker E: Unclear. [00:48:12] Speaker D: Kim, did we give you enough information, this podcast, for you to have some information? I'm sure you can find something on the Internet if you want to find out more about what happened, at least spark notes. [00:48:21] Speaker A: I agree with both of you, all of you, that I think that the story is really important and that had this big blockbuster movie not come out and had this book not been a bestseller, then maybe none of us would know about it. So hey, good for all of these people involved that are bringing this story to the general public so everybody knows about it. But I did not like either. I couldn't get through the book. I found it too factual and not enough of the story. Just like Mar says, I want to know more about Molly and her, their story. And then I just found the movie. Just 2 hours too long. Like 2 hours. Like it could have been like an hour and a half. I think that you could read an article about this story and learn just as much and, you know, then you could doing either of these. So I would say a no to either. But hey, great for them for bringing the story. And Kim said it, maybe not the medium's the right way, but the story is good that they learned about it. Right, Ashley? [00:49:16] Speaker E: Yeah, no, I agree with you guys totally. I would not recommend the movie even if you read the book. [00:49:23] Speaker D: It's just. [00:49:23] Speaker E: It's long, it's boring. I don't think the telling of the story is as similar to the book. Like, I don't think the point of the movie comes across as it does in the book. I would recommend the book, but more for like, I think as an introduction to the history of colonization type of thing, I think it's a lot more digestible for maybe people who aren't indigenous to read that and kind of like get it to be like, oh, shit, like massacres were happening, you know, we were treating people like this. But I don't personally see any of my indigenous friends reading this book and being like, I learned something from this and it was good storytelling. So, yes and no. I will say though, at the end of the night, I will listen to an audiobook or a podcast and I'll play Sudoku to go to bed. And I like when it's true crime. So this was really nice for that. So if you do something like that, honestly, it was. It was a pretty good. Because it's long, so, you know, you get many nights out of it. But yeah, so that. That's my thing. I didn't hate listening to it, hated watching it. Absolutely. I think the story is important. And I agree. Like, if it didn't become this movie and probably if these big names weren't attached to it, it wouldn't have been such a bestseller and a big box hit. So in a way, I'm thankful for that. But yeah. Yeah. [00:50:49] Speaker D: Great. [00:50:51] Speaker B: What are we doing next? A long way home or the immortal life? [00:50:55] Speaker G: Oh, what are we doing next? [00:50:57] Speaker F: I think long way home. [00:50:58] Speaker B: I'm gonna look. [00:50:58] Speaker D: I wish I knew. I haven't got the fuck yet. [00:51:01] Speaker E: Yeah. I feel like it's long way home. [00:51:03] Speaker D: But I could check almost 100% certain it's the movie called a long way home. [00:51:07] Speaker B: No, it's called lying. No, it's called lion. [00:51:09] Speaker E: Okay. [00:51:10] Speaker D: Uh oh. [00:51:10] Speaker A: Oh, that book. Oh, I've seen that and read that. [00:51:14] Speaker D: Do you have any initial thoughts for don't say anything? [00:51:18] Speaker A: No, I'm not saying anything. It was a long time ago. [00:51:21] Speaker B: Yeah. A long way home is the next one. [00:51:23] Speaker A: All right. [00:51:23] Speaker B: Okay. So nice to see you. Thanks for having me back. [00:51:27] Speaker E: Bye bye. [00:51:29] Speaker B: This interruption is brought to you by unpublished. Do you want to know more about the members and book interrupted? Go behind the scenes, visit our website at www.bookinterrupted.com. Book interrupted. [00:51:45] Speaker D: So lately my biggest interruption has been this one year old ball of fluff, my puppy dog, barley. This dog has taken to interrupting me whenever she sees me reading a book. Like she can't stand it. She's worse than a toddler. I'll be sitting there reading my book, and in she comes and she knocks it out of my hand. I have to have my wits about me. I know what page I'm on. Because if that dog wants to be pet or she wants somebody to play ball with her, then all bets are off. [00:52:19] Speaker B: Book interrupted. It's book report time. We're gonna find out from each member their final thoughts. And do they recommend the book. Let's listen. [00:52:29] Speaker A: Okay. [00:52:30] Speaker G: This is my personal journal for killers of the Flower moon by David Gran. I don't know what to do say in this journal that I didn't already say in our group discussion. Usually I do my journals ahead of time and the timing just didn't work out. I didn't finish reading this book until yesterday and then I watched the movie last night and then we recorded the group today. So what do I want to say? I guess it's piece of history magnified. That really has a pretty concentrated example of how terrible indigenous people were treated post contact. And this is hundreds of years post contact at this point, this piece of history, because it's 1900, I'm sure that there are hundreds and hundreds of stories like this that could be told that underlying, I guess, genocide, torture, total horrific circumstances that is a part of indigenous history post contact. So I don't have much to say about this in the sense of a personal journal I'm just stuck on, you know how there's like, if you have one person, you can feel empathy for them, but if like, this is like study. The human capacity for empathy is altered by the amount of people represented in the consideration of whether you're going to feel empathy for them. If there's one person, two people, then there's a strong motivated response from empathy. But if there are groups of people, you're less like affected by it. So I don't know what my point is. I guess my point is telling each story helps really create an understanding in the listener or the reader or the viewer of the depth of the atrocities. Whereas, you know, if you just stay statistics from the 15 hundreds since contact, you know, white men came and they did this and they did that. And like, it's faceless, nameless people. And so when the people have names and you can see their faces, you know, it obviously makes it that much more meaningful in understanding how absolutely terrible post contact life for indigenous folks is, was and continues to be in varying degrees. So I said this in the group. I think it's important that we seek more information about these stories so that we can educate ourselves on things. But also whether this particular book or that particular movie is the best way to educate yourself on this particular story, I'm not sure about. But if that's the only way that you learn about it, then I think that that's better than not knowing it all. Alright, that'll be it for this one today, folks. [00:55:35] Speaker D: Hello. [00:55:37] Speaker C: I am back once again for my second book of this season. Very excited still to be back here. I have to first say that I did not finish the book, the killers of the flower Moon, not my favorite. There was so many details in it that made it really difficult for me to get into the heart of the story. I do read a lot of investigative journalism books and I like the stories of the characters and I found this was just like a very factual, which was good. It was good to have the facts. The story is such an important story to tell. So I'm happy that it's out there. Just wasn't my favorite book. I want to read just a little excerpt of what I mean about extra details. So they're talking about this one character, this auctioneer, that does not. This is the only time, I think, the auctioneer shows up in the whole book. And this is so the auctioneer, a tall white man with thinning hair and a booming voice, would eventually step under the tree. He typically wore a gaudy striped shirt and a celluloid collar and a long, flowing tie. A metal chain connected to a timepiece dangled from his pocket. He presided over all the osage sales, and his moniker, Colonel, made him sound like a veteran of world War one. In fact, it was part of his christened name, Colonel Ellsworth E. Walters. A master showman. He urged bidders with a folks. He sang like, come on, boys, this old wildcat is liable to have a mess of kittens. And there's more about this auctioneer. And I find that sometimes in books, when there's just so many details, I understand that the author really wants to put you in that world. And for some people, this is perfect for them and so wonderful. You're gonna love this book, if that's for you. For me, I'm just like, okay, get to the point. Let's tell me the story. Tell me the emotions behind it. I don't need to know exactly what he wore. [00:57:25] Speaker A: That takes out a full paragraph of. [00:57:26] Speaker C: A character that I'm never gonna hear again. So for me, that's just the way. So I just couldn't. [00:57:32] Speaker B: I tried. [00:57:33] Speaker C: I got through about half of the book and then was not. But I think maybe I'll read the last couple of sections because I've heard they're quite good and different than the movie itself. The movie. So long. Just far too long. Although there's so many reviews online that people say it's an epic masterpiece and they love it. But I just want to say this one review, because I was reading through. [00:57:55] Speaker A: That I thought was funny. [00:57:57] Speaker C: This person says, so. [00:57:58] Speaker A: This movie literally has the same pace. [00:58:01] Speaker C: As the Conestoga wagons as they headed west across the open plains to arrive in Oklahoma. It did feel a bit like that. It was just everything. Long, drawn out conversations. I hated that it was just about the men, too. And I really wanted to hear. Hear more of, say, Molly's story and the other characters stories as opposed to these two men. And I think it was just because they were these famous actors. It was all about them. [00:58:26] Speaker D: But I didn't. [00:58:27] Speaker C: Didn't love that. [00:58:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:58:28] Speaker C: Not my favorite movie by far, or definitely not my favorite book. But I did appreciate the story. I'm really glad I learned about it. And I think that I would have maybe not learned about it had this movie not come out in this book. So that's wonderful that that's happening, that people can hear about this story, but. Yeah, not my cup of tea, as they say. [00:58:50] Speaker B: Okay, great. [00:58:51] Speaker C: Well, thanks, and I will see you. [00:58:53] Speaker A: In the next book. [00:58:54] Speaker D: Bye. [00:58:55] Speaker H: Hi, everyone, it's Ashley. And I'm doing my personal journal for killers of the Flower moon. I think this is a really important story. I do like the book. The movie's good. I think it is a story that needs to. To be told. However, as be an indigenous person, I'm tired of this story. While it's really important that indigenous stories are being told, they're all kind of the same in the sense. And it always feels that there's not true justice. And that's kind of how I felt in this case. I believe it was the FBI that had investigated all of the murders. And again, they just couldn't figure it out. And I know this was earlier on, I believe, when the FBI was just starting. Anyways, I'm just tired of it. I want to hear a story about indigenous people succeeding. That's the end of it. I want to hear a story about indigenous people going missing and being treated the same. [00:59:54] Speaker E: Yeah. [00:59:55] Speaker H: So that's kind of my take on it. Again, I do think it is a good story. The book was good. I am excited to hear what the other ladies have to say about it as well, and just hear the girls opinions. Also, if you have listened to the story, read the story, watched it, or even know anything about it, I think it would be really awesome to have some audience engagement as well, to hear from the reader's perspective as well. So thank you so much. And I can't wait to see the ladies in a bit. [01:00:25] Speaker E: Bye. [01:00:25] Speaker D: Okay, so sometimes I record a personal journal, and then I just to listen to it a little bit, just to make sure I sounded okay. Believe it or not, I do that even though I'm always rambling on. And I was listening to it and, like, totally got a word wrong over. [01:00:39] Speaker E: And over and over. [01:00:40] Speaker D: So here I am. I'm here again, although it's all the same to you. So I realized that in the group discussion, we didn't really explain what the book, the Killers of the Flower Moon, was about. I feel that maybe some people don't know what it's about. The subtitle for it is the Osage murders and the birth of the FBI. So this book takes place before the FBI was a thing. And just when J. Edgar Hoover was. He was just starting to lead the Bureau of Investigation. He wanted to build into a bigger thing that was using fact based investigations and other things. He really wanted to control things. So he wanted a case that would further his political aspirations as far as the bureau went. So I'm going to read from the back of the book, kind of about what this book book is. Is about. Because it's not just about J. Edgar Hoover. That's not the main part. There's no reason for me to improvise, because I got the book right here. Here we go. In the 1920s, the richest people per capita in the world were members of the Osage indian nation in Oklahoma. After oil was discovered beneath their land, they rode and chauffeured automobiles, built mansions, and sent their children to study in Europe. Then, one by one, the Osage began to be killed off. The family of an Osage woman, Molly Burkhardt, became a prime target. Her relatives were shot and poisoned. It was just the beginning. As more and more members of the tribe began to die under suspicious circumstances. It's later revealed in Hera that her family was not the only ones that were being targeted or the people around her. However, the murders that are related to her family are the ones that got prosecuted, and most of them did not. So that's kind of why this ended up in a book and then now a movie. It's an interesting part of north american history that I knew nothing about. I didn't learn about this before. So for that reason, it was nice to read this book, even though I was talking about some pretty bad things. But I've already kind of said what I wanted to say about the book, of the movie and the group discussion. So I thought maybe I would talk about where my mindset was when I was reading this book. Because at the same time, I was also reviewing the ballad of Songbirds and Snakes, the prequel to the Hunger Games trilogy. And I also have been questioned by my daughter about religion and where the stories come from. And I was telling her that the stories come from real knowledge that was probably passed down through generations. And, you know, back now we're talking about. If you want to talk about that more, go back to season one. Book one, women who run with the wolves really talks about storytelling and what it tells us and the symbolism there, and how storytelling is a way to pass down information. But I was also listening to one of my favorite podcasts that's called Stem Talk. And they had a guest on called Peter Pieroli. And he was talking about something that's called information foraging theory. And essentially what it is, is it's talking about a way that humans collect information that's very similar to how we forage, or we had to forage from an evolutionary standpoint to get food and survive. But that that's how we also consume information. So we don't get all the information that's out there and then make our best decision. We kind of pick information that we need and then put it together into knowledge. So, I mean, that's where kind of, I guess, unconscious bias comes in and things like that, where if you didn't take all the information, but you took snippets based on how you forged information in the past, and that's kind of how you put your knowledge together and form your opinions. And I guess this kind of like how the FBI essentially had to do it in this book, too. They went looking for information. They didn't get everything, but they had to piece together a story based on the evidence that was put there. I guess, in a way, that does tie in a little bit to this book. But it also got me thinking about the individualism that is shown in this book, the looking out for number one, the greed. You know, greed has been on my mind a lot lately. I don't know. Not because I'm feeling greedy, but just, I don't know. It just seems to be surrounding us, right? Maybe just we're coming out of Christmas now, and it just seems like such a greedy season. I mean, just all the advertising around Christmas is just kind of takes away from the good feelings of Christmas, doesn't it? But it got me to thinking about how more and more, I guess, just the way I was raised in this kind of western culture to look at things as an individual. Just like the cowboys in this book were looking out for themselves, and President Snow is looking out for himself. But they're not looking out for humans as a group or as, like, the human organism, where we all have something to contribute. If we put all of our information together, which I think that scientists called cooperative information foraging, that's where you get the best kind of information, or you can solve some good information. Everybody has some good problems. Everybody has different information they bring together. That's what you get when you have a group, when you think about us all as one big maybe organism that we can work together. You know, I've been thinking more and more about people like trees in a forest. You know, like, a forest is not just a tree beside a tree. It's everything together. If we started thinking of humans. When we're like that, where no one's an island, are all part of a bigger thing, a bigger being, then maybe we would do better. So I think this is kind of where I was going on, on the group discussion. If you could pass down information, like the blanket that the osage women wore, Molly Burkhardt wore. She wore more traditional clothes. It says in the book it wasn't just somebody decided to put that on one day. It was like passed down. There was a reason for everything. And then it develops into the culture, cultural clothing that someone's going to be wearing down the road. Whereas, you know, my clothing is based on, well, maybe not mine, but someone's clothing might be based on what's the latest trend, that it could be changing it monthly, which is completely different. The reasons for wearing what I wear might be different than if I go back a few hundred years. What people were wearing then might have been more practical. Maybe you have to go back in my history more than a few hundred years for something that was practical, but you get the idea. [01:06:39] Speaker B: So I don't normally read true crime. I find it super disturbing. And this book was no exception. Super, super disturbing. However, I think the author did a really good job. The way he laid out the book and how he indicated all the different things that were happening, but not all together. So you got confused. He kind of moved the story along with all the complications of the story, without making me feel completely lost, like, who's that again? And who. [01:07:06] Speaker E: Who's that? [01:07:06] Speaker B: And who's related to that? And I wasn't confused. He did a really excellent job unraveling what happened. And I really liked at the end how he said it wasn't just William hale that did it. He wasn't the only evil person that was many, many of these horrible white men killing for the oil rights. Yeah, I thought also that the movie, it was. I was shocked when it was 3 hours. I was like, oh, my God, 3 hours. But they did a really good job with the movie. And some of the assumptions they made in the book that weren't actual facts, but the author was making some assumptions. They made them actualities. I like, they kind of focused on Ernest and Molly. I think the. The movie's probably gonna win like a million awards. Really well done. I think the movie was. So now this is two out of the season. I think that the movie did really job, which I wasn't expecting. And I think I said I was gonna like this movie the least. So that didn't happen. I liked it a lot. 3 hours. A bit long for me, though. Anyway, I did enjoy the book. I probably wouldn't. It's not gonna, like, make me read more true crime. But I think that the way the author wrote the book, I got a real idea of what was happening, how the mystery unfolded, how they solved the mystery, all the people in the mystery. I like how at the end, all of he went back and you heard about all the different relatives, them of family members that they never discovered. And I liked also how in the movie, which didn't happen in the book, but in the movie, how he said they made that, William Hale said that people will just forget, and when he gets out of jail, they'll just forget, which is ridiculous and outrageous. But in the book, how people are still suffering from it, and it was from the 1920s, obviously, it was horrific. And I like how that paralleled if you read the book and you realize, like, people are still suffering generations just still trying to figure out what happened to their family members, just to have closure and how the movie kind of foreshadowed that with Hale saying, people just forget, which is just true evil. I also like how they portrayed Ernest in the movie. I don't know if I had as much sympathy for earnest in the book, but I can see how he was kind of had a fear, maybe of his uncle more than his love for Molly. I guess I did get a sense in the book and in the movie that he loved his wife, but he clearly wanted the money more, I guess, or was afraid of his uncle more. I don't know what that is. And also in the book, it implies that he knew his children are gonna be blown up. That's what I got from the book. Maybe everyone, I'll ask everyone else what they think. I think the book said that cowboy was angry at his father because he knew his father was willing to blow him up, and his mother and his sisters with his aunt and uncle Rita and Bill. I think it was Bill Smith. So I think it was nicer in the movie that he was like, where are you? And he was worried about them. But in the book, it kind of implies he knew they were going to be blown up and he was just going to be okay with that. Didn't enjoy that. Yeah. Very intense book and movie. Anyway, I look forward to talking to everybody about it, and I think I would recommend both. [01:10:16] Speaker D: Go see them both. [01:10:17] Speaker B: I would read the book and then watch the movie. Yeah. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Book Interrupted. If you'd like to see the video highlights from this episode, please go to our YouTube channel, Book interrupted. You can also find our videos on www.bookinterrupted.com. [01:10:35] Speaker D: Hi, this is Leah from Book interrupted. We'd love to get to know all of our members way, way more. So write in, comment, like subscribe, the works because we want to get to know you, hear what you think about our podcast and more. Go to www.bookinterrupted.com and please keep listening. [01:10:57] Speaker B: Book interrupted. [01:11:00] Speaker G: Never forget, every child matters.